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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1961-11-14ISoule: Joint Meeting with Planning Board November 214, 1961 We are here to try to get an understanding on what areas of trespass we are making on each other. Nickerson: Will you consider Patricia Terrace first? Soule: O.K. (Reads letter of 10/10/61 to Board of Appeals from Planning Board) There seems to be two areas here. -.One is frontage and street. Nickerson: I think the reason we have delayed our decision is to see if Harold can advise us of any more economical way of doing this without creating so much expense that the lot won't bring that much in return. * felt that this was a piece of land isolated beyond any use. If so much money had to be spent they wouldn't do it. Stevens: This goes back to the question of whether or not it is a subdivision. It comes within the definition of subdivision, It comes before you to apparently grant a variance of the by-law. It vests in the Board of Appeals power to grant variances. That doeantt involve right to grant variances from the control law. Some years ago we got into a discussion about how you would know which.was which when they came before you. I suggested that in all cases where you are presented with a plan and asked to act on it that you not grant that until the plan was endorsed in some way by the Planning Board. I had thought that that was followed. Then later it was my understanding that the Planning Board didn't want it that way. I have told them that was very confusing. Mayers A subdivision is the division.of a parcel of land into two or more parcels where one doesn't have frontage or doesn't face on an accepted way. As the zoning Board of Appeal you have a right to grant lots that have insufficient frontage or area, As the sub control board of appeal you have the right to grant on an unaccepted way. If a plan comes in here and divides a piece of property where the frontage is in right it is a sub- division. You just get a variance on a frontage. Can we rule that it would not be a subdivision if the person gets a variance from the Board of Appeals? Souls: Eben after the Board of Appeals has granted a variance? Stevens: We are talkingabout before -hand. Nickerson: What do we do when they are pushed to us by the Planning Board? They come down here to the Planning Board. The Planning Board sends them to us. Stevens: If they are going to operate on that basis they have to abide by what you do. Mabae: We have been incansistent. Nickerson: On the Patricia Terrace deal ... unless the Planning Board puts its stamp of approval on this we can't act on it. Stevens: It is a subdivision. The Maloney thing was a lot. This is different. This is a large tract of land at the and of this so-called etreet. They want two lots. They have got to go to the Planning Board to have a subdivision approved: There has to be a hearing by the Planning Board -2- Nickerson: 2- Hickerson: If we deny this should we write a letter to these people and return their $15 and tell them their coming before us was in error? Snow: I made this material after we saw the notice before the hearing at the Board of Appeals. Nickerson: I think we will settle that matter ourselves. Ripley: Is it definite in your mind that this board could not grant this petition? Should we have had it all? Stevens: They should have been told that this is a subdivision and sent to the Planning Board. Ripley: We ;can't grant it? Nickerson: If it had been approved by the Planning Board we could have granted it. Stevens: If the Planning Board has endorsed it, but the lots do not meet the zoning, than it comes before you for the variance. If they want to treat it as a subdivision they could refuse their endorsement. They might come and oppose the granting of it. Meyer: Hear can we say that it is not a subdivision when it is a subdivision? Stevens: You have got legislation written by non -experts that has got to be interpreted so it will work. Nickerson: I would li)w to ask the Planning Board if when we communicate with this person we should advise him that he should come before the Planning Board. Stevens: You have to say it is a subdivision which requires Planning Board approval. (construction?) Soule: If we had the public tearing the .... could be done on the subdivision control law. If we felt that this turn -around could be less than 1201 and so varied our regulations to make it legal it would have to go before the Board of Appeals. If we held to the'1201 it would never appear before the Board of Appeals. Ripley- I still don't know where we stand. Snow: (Refers.to letter of 1957) It seems that the only time we would not act on a plan would be when it was on an accepted street and someone was asking for a variance on frontage or size of the lot. Technically, that is a subdivision. Stevens; If it is a subdivision the Building Inspector is not supposed to issue a ' building permit. Meyer: Is there any way for the Board of Appeals to distinguish zoning variances from subdivision control variances? Stevens: They should have to point out chapter and verse of what they are trying to get a variance from. The notices should indicate what it is they are trying to do. Soule: Boston distinguishes between the structure of appeals. Stevens: Soule: Ripley: Stevens: Ripley: Stevens: Ripley: Stevens: Soule: Ripley: Stevens: Nickerson: Norriss Stevens: Norris: -3 - In some places they have different boards. Sometimes they have two hearings. Can we take As this particular thing stands, can we act on Yes. You can deny it. Can we either grant or deny it? Can we act on it or not at all? You can dismiss it for lack of jurisdiction. If we can act on it at all, we canact on it either way? No. If they came and asked to vary the control law. If they can neither deny or approve, I would think they would have to act as having lack of jurisdiction to approve.a subdivision. If we can't act both ways, then it should not have come to us at all. It shouldn't have come to you. I would say we automatically deny it because xe can't grant it. Don't we just dismiss it? They have asked for a coning variance. If you deny at this time on the grounds that it involves a subdivision. Couldn't we suggest they come to the Planning Board? Stevens: They have asked for a variance and I don't think you should grant a subdivision based on a subdivision which hasn't been approved. Ripleyt I don't see how we have any rights with it at all. Norris: They are asking us to consider a variance on something that isn't proper. Thgyr don't qualify for the hearing that they requested. Stevens: They ought to come down here for a determination. Ballard: People coma to us with a petition of sorts which Pairs. Brodhead may help them write. When the:;next person comes can she automatically send them to the Planning Board? Nickerson: I want to prevent this from going on too long. We have the right to deny it because they have asked for something we can't grant. I shall ask the Board to send their check back. Stevens As their attorney he went to the wrong board. Nickerson: We can deny it. Stevens: They can come back the' neat day. Ballard: We deiW it on the basis of the lot frontage and advise them ab subdivision situation. Some: Snort: Stevens: The second problem: The Gallo petition. That has been granted. When they bring the plan into us we say this is a subdivision and we are not going to grant it even though the variance has been granted. The Board of Appeals does not approve subdivisions. Ballards We have been doing this for years on these two lot propositions. Soule: We are talking about unaccepted streets. Stevens: If it complies with zoning it is alright. That is not true of these others. They are subdivisions. Even though they are subdivisions. They still have to get approval from the Planning Board. Nickerson: How about matters in, general between our two boards? Several years ago it was deterai.ned'that in any case the Planning Board was interested they should give the matter thought and advise us reasonably soonin advance of the hearing instead of the night of the hearing. Unless we hear a little while ahead of time we,will consider that they are not interested in objecting to the petition. Soule: And not be taken by surprise the night of the hearing. Eipley: Sometimes it has been alright. Soule: And sometimes you have been warned that we are going to speak on a particular hearing, Stevens: You have a petition before you. You don't make up your mind before the hearing. What difference does it make? Nickerson: The Yl nine Board should :iu Mr opinion, advise us in advance of their stand on the matter. Stevens: You have the power. The attitude of the Planning Board is just one thing to take into the consideration. Nickerson: The Planning Board has a professional and we are amateurs. We keep making these errors of judgement and I think the advice of the Planning Board is worthwhile. Mabee: Sometimes we decide Monday as to what stand to take on your hearing Tuesday night. Why do you have to make a decision so soon? Nickerson: We don't always have 5 regular members of the Board of Appeals and you have to get the same 5 people together again. Norris: If we know that this is a legitimate hearing...in this Patricia Terrace if we had Nickerson: Sam and I talked ahead of time. We are not following the Planning Board's dictates' but we do like to know how they feel about this ahead of time. Mabee: If there is any question of the jurisdiction matter we should communicate with you well in advance.