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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1973-11-12-BOS-min 30 SELECTMEN'S MEETING November 12, 1973 A regular meeting of the Board of Selectmen was held in the Select- men's Meeting Room, Town Office Building, on Monday, November 12, 1973, at 7 30 p.m. Chairman Kenney, Mr. Bailey, Mr. Brown, and Mrs. Riffin; Mr. O'Connell, Town Manager; Mr. Cohen, Town Counsel; Mr. McSweeney, Director of Public Works/Engineering; Mrs. McCurdy, Executive Clerk, were present. Messrs. Richard Michelson, Willard Frye, and Anthony Mancini of the Chamber of Commerce met with the Board to discuss the conservation of energy Chairman Kenney The Board has received telegrams from President Nixon informing us that officials at the federal level would be working by an executive order to conserve energy, and state and local govern- ment officials are asked to adopt similar methods. Mr. Michelson The Chamber of Commerce is going to make an effort to conserve energy and it is not with pleasure that we announce that we will ndt display Christmas lights, which we have been very proud of This would conserve a sizable amount of energy during December. Mr. Bailey Will the Chamber of Commerce adopt a policy on the illumination of signs, etc.? Mr. Michelson There will be a reduction in the use of lights. The Edison Company has blocked off all of their window lights and signs and, if they are affected, we all ought to be pretty concerned. Chamber of Mr. O'Connell I have prepared an administrative directive which Commerce I propose to issue to all departments concerned, subject to 'possible Energy change when we learn the content of the Governor's message tomorrow. Crisis Mr. Brown: Is it in the will that Cary Hall can't be closed down? Mr. O'Connell I believe it could be done with the approval of the Trustees; we will check into the will The Christmas tree on the Green was discussed and it was agreed that the tree would be illuminated for a limited time each evening. The Board agreed to implement Mr. O'Connell's recommendations as follows: 1. All general Government buildings will be operated at 68° during the business day. The temperature setting during non-business hours will be reduced appropriately. The School Department is instituting a similar procedure with gymnasium temperatures being set several degrees lower than classrooms. 2. A transfer request will be forwarded in order to purchase storm windows for the new section of the Town Office Building. 306 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 3. The temperature in Cary Building will be reduced to 550-600. Reservations will be restricted and a survey made to schedule committee meetings elsewhere. The Town Office Building could be used two nights a week, with as many committee meetings as possible. 4. We will review the street light control with Boston Edison. 5. Use of Town vehicles will be restricted to high priority functions. Rules applicable to travel outside of Lexington and business functions in personal or Town vehicles will be drawn up. Mr. O'Connell Now is the time for the public to be made aware of curtailment and to conserve as much as possible. Chairman Kenney agreed and said that the principal reason for having the Chamber of Commerce meet with us was for publicity to let the citi- zens know what General Government and the Chamber of Commerce will do to help the energy crisis. Members of the Chamber of Commerce retired from the meeting. Mr. O'Connell requested approval of the Board to add to Contract Contract 72-9-E an Extra Work Order in the amount of $600.00 for waterproofing 72-9-E the east and west walls of Cary Memorial Building. The contract was awarded on July 30, 1973 to F. DiCenzo and Sons, Inc for cleaning, caulking and pointing the Cary Memorial Building, in the amount of $3,510.00. Upon motion duly made and seconded, it was voted to add Extra Work Order #1 to Contract 72-9-E in the amount of $600.00 At 8 00 p.m., Chairman Kenney opened the hearing to consider whether the Class 3 license under G.L. C 140, section 58, issued to Carroll John P. Carroll Co. , Inc., 31 Allen Street, Lexington, on January 8, Class III 1973 should be continued in full force and effect or revoked for fail- License ure to comply with G.L. C. 140, sections 57-69. This license is for buying of second hand motor vehicles for the purpose of remodeling, taking apart or rebuilding the same, or the buying or selling of parts of second hand motor vehicles or tires, or the assembling of second hand motor vehicle parts. Chairman Kenney This hearing is being held at the request of Attorney Joseph M. Cohen, 31 State Street, Boston, who is representing Thomas J. Costello, 36 Allen Street, and by letter dated June 25, 1973 to the Board of Selectmen state the following "Said Thomas J. Costello calls upon the Board of Selectmen of the Town of Lexington to forthwith rescind the above described license on the grounds that it fails to qualify with G.L. Ch. 140 s. 59A in the following respects. 30t1( Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 a. The licensed locus is less than 1,000 feet from the nearest edge of a highway on the primary highway system. b. The licensed locus is within 600 feet of a state highway. c. The licensed locus is within ordinary view of both a town conser- vation area and a church, both of which are on the northeasterly side of the locus." Attorney Edward M. Ginsburg, One Boston Place, Boston, representing Mr. John P. Carroll, 31 Allen Street, Lexington was present. Chairman Kenney Notice of the hearing was advertised in the November 1, 1973 issue of the Lexington Minute-man, and was sent by reg- istered mail to all abutters. The record will show that the Board of Appeals has specifically granted a permit for this use at that property. I asked both Attorneys to have any of the witnesses that they expect to testify to rise and be sworn in. All interested persons Were then sworn to give testimony. A complete transcription of the public hearing was taken by Annette Nahigyan of Doris 0. Wong Associates, Certified Shorthand' Reporters, 31 Milk Street, Boston, as follows Chairman Kenney. Mr. Cohen, the floor is yours, to present your case. Mr. Cohen. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, and other members of the Board, it is Mr. Costello's contention that the license that has now been conducted, which is a Class 3 license under General Laws, Chapter 140, Section 58, is in viola- tion of the requirements of General Laws, Chapter 140, Section 59A, in at least one respect and we believe in more than One respect. Now, first of all, for the record, I would like to read Chapter 140, Section 58, Class 3, calling to the attention of the Board that the license just read by the Chairman is by its own terms a Class 3 license under General Laws, Chapter 140, Section 58. Class 3 license is defined as follows, under Section 58 of Chapter 140 "Any person whose principal business is the buying of second-hand motor vehicles for the purpose of remodeling, taking apart or rebuilding the same or the buying or selling of parts of second-hand mOtor vehicles or tires or the assembling of second-hand motor vehicles parts, may be granted a motor vehicle junk license." I should now like to read from a photocopy of the application for license that was filed by the licensee in renewal of which the present license was issued. And this application was filed in 1972; it was not re- peated in 1973. I assume that the Board has a copy of this license, which is entitled: Application for a license to buy, sell, exchange or assemble second-hand motor vehicles or parts thereof. Now, it contains questions and answers. Question number one is "What is the name of the concern? Ub Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Answer. John P. Carroll Co , Inc. Question. Business address of concern Answer. 31 Allen Street, Lexington. Question. Is the above concern an individual, co-partnership, asso- ciation or corporation? Answer. Corporation." Question number five. "if an association or a corporation, state full names and residential addresses of the principal officers." Answer. President, John P. Carroll; Secretary, Robert J. Carroll; Treasurer, Mary L. Carroll." Question number six. "Are you engaged principally in the business of buying, selling or exchanging motor vehicles?" Answer. Yes. Question. If so, is your principal business the sale of new motor vehicles? Answer. No. Question. Is your principal business the buying and selling of second hand motor vehicles? Answer. No. Question. Is your principal business that of a motor vehicle junk dealer? Answer. Yes." And then it goes on to describe, presumably the premises where it conducts its business as One acre of land, located at 31 Allen Street, Lexington, Mass. And question number eight is "Are you a recognized agent of a motor vehicle manufacturer?" The answer is "No." Question number nine "Have you a signed contract, as required by Section 58, Class 1?" The answer is, "No." And question number ten "Have you ever applied for a license to deal in second hand motor vehicles or parts thereof?" The answer is, "Yes." Question. If so, in what city or town? Answer. Lexington. Question. Did you receive a license? Answer. Yes. Question. For what year? Answer. 1972." An question number eleven "Has any license issued to you in Massa- chusetts or any other state to deal in motor vehicles or parts thereof, ever been suspended or revoked?" And the answer is "No." And this is signed John P. Carroll, "duly authorized to represent the concern herein mentioned, residence 31 Allen Street, Lexington, Mass." 300 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Now, I would just simply like to call to the attention of this Board, for whatever it's worth, that the decision of the Board of Appeals issued last June granting this permit states, among other things; "The Board finds that permission to operate a salvage or junk yard is neither requested or granted." And I call to your attention the character of the license that was issued as described in the statute and the description of the business, the business principally engaged in by the applicant as a motor vehicle junk dealer. Now, I should like to read into the record General Laws, Chapter 140, Section 59A, so far as pertinent to this hearing. "No license shall be granted under Section 59 to a person within Class 3 as defined in Section 58 for a motor vehicle junk yard unless such junk yard," and that part of the statute which is pertinent starts with sub- section C which reads, is "1. More than 1000 feet from the nearest edge of the nearest highway on the interstate or primary system. 2. More than 600 feet from any other state highway. 3. More than 300 feet from any park, bathing beach, playground, school, church or cemetery, and is not within ordinary view therefrom. 4. Is screened from view either by natural objects or well constructed and properly maintained fences at least six feet high and in accordance with regulations as promulgated by the Department of Public Works and as speci- fied on said license." Now particularly in reference to said Section 59A, subsection C, Clause 3, which prohibits the operation of the use less than 300 feet from any park, bathing beach, playground, school, church or cemetery, and from being within ordinary view therefrom. I ask Mr. Costello to come up here. THOMAS J. COSTELLO, (Sworn) Direct Examination By Mr. Joseph Cohen: Q. Mr. Costello, your name and address? A Thomas J. Costello, 36 Allen Street, Lexington, Mass. Q How far is 36 Allen Street from 31 Allen Street? A. Across the road, across Allen Street. Q Whether or not you are the gentleman who has requested this hearing? A Yes, I am. Bio Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Q I show you this plan and ask you whether or not this plan is an accurate plan of the area in which 31 and 36 Allen Street are located? A Yes. Mr. Joseph M. Cohen. Do we have a pointer here? Mr. Brown. Would you like a pencil? Mr. Joseph M. Cohen. Fine, thank you. Q Now, can you point out on this plan just where the property at 31 Allen Street is located? Mr. Brown. Could you -- so we could see something? Mr. Joseph M. Cohen. I'm sorry. Q Why don't you step over here, Mr. Costello, to my right so that the Board can see this. Would you point out on this plan where the carroll property is? A In here. Q This large -- A This whole area in here, right. Q Can you point out where your house is on this plan? A Right here. Q Is there a church in the vicinity of 36 and 31 Allen Street? A Yes, there is. Q What is the name of that church? A The Trinity Covenant Church. Q And is this the church over here? A Yes. Q With the cross on it? Mr. Bailey. Will you turn that around so we can see what Mr. Costello was pointing to? Mr. Joseph M. Cohen. Maybe we can -- Mr. Bailey. If you just hold it still and ask Mr. Costello to point. Q Mr. Costello, point out the location- of the church. A (The witness complies.) Mr. Joseph M. Cohen. It has that cross on it, Mr. Ginsburg. Q And whether or not in the past few days, you took photographs with a camera from the church? A Yes, I did. Q Did you bring those photographs with you? A Yes, I did. 311 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Q Would you take those :photographs out, please? Can you tell us on what date this photograph was taken? A Last Tuesday, the 6th Q That was. November 6, 1973? A Right Q And I ask you whether the view shown on that photograph is a fair representation of the view that was seen from the church? A That's true, sir Q And whether it shows the operation of the licensed use that has pre- viously been referred to, in that picture? A Yes, it does. Q That's a crane you recognize in the photograph? A Yes Mr Brown. Could we see the photograph? Mr Joseph M. Cohen I was about to show it first, I thought, to Mr. Ginsburg to see it, and then I will pass it around Mr Brown. Mr Chairman, could I ask a question at this point? Chairman Kenney Mr Brown Mr Brown. I would like to know where this picture is taken from. It looks as if it were on the church steeple up high Q Can you tell us where it was taken? A Yes, it was taken in a window in the church Mr Brown. How high? The Witness Oh, probably 10, 12 feet high, something like that, off the ground Chairman Kenney How far in distance is it from the front door of the church to the place where the automobiles are cut up? You have your map there? The Witness Maybe I can measure the distance out exactly Is there a scale in here? Mr Joseph M. Cohen No, there isn't a scale in here The Witness I would say probably 800 feet Mr Brown. This was then taken with a telephoto lens? The Witness With a camera I hired Chairman Kenney Does it have an unusual type of lens on it, sir? The Witness Yes Q Well, may I ask you, Mr Costello, whether the objects that you viewed 'that are shown in that particular picture are visible from the church? A Yes, they are Mr Brown Could I ask the question whether you took the picture? The Witness Yes Q You stated that the objects shown in that photograph are visible from the church? 31 : Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 A Yes, they are Q Incidentally, was that crane that is shown in the photograph visible from the parking lot in front of the church? A Yes Q Do you have any other photographs? A Yes, I do Chairman Kenney Can we keep this and call it Exhibit No 1, Mr Cohen? Mr Joseph M Cohen Yes (Photograph is, marked Exhibit 1 ) Mr Brown. Could I ask one more question? Chairman Kenney Mr Brown Mr Brown This last question makes me ask another one Can you only see the crane or can you also see the material on the ground? The Witness You can see the material on the ground from the window, yes Mr Brown. But from the front of the church, you cannot? The Witness From the front of the church at times On this case here, I didn't notice in front of the church on the ground I noticed the crane I didn't notice the -- Q Did you notice the crane from the parking lot in front of the church? A Yes, yes Q Can you tell us where this photograph was taken from, Mr Costello? A The same area Mr Ginsburg I'm sorry, do you mean by the same area, that you were standing up in that -- The Witness Yes Mr Ginsburg -- window? The Witness Right Mr Ginsburg An what kind of a telescopical lens were you using? The Witness I am not that familiar I hired a camera I can't give you the details on it I hired it from Claus Gelott down here in Cambridge Mr Ginsburg Is that a special high-powered -- The Witness I don't know what you mean by special I'm no ex- pert on cameras I asked for a camera, they figured this would do the job, and that's the one they gave me Mr Ginsburg You figured that was the one that would do the job? Chairman Kenney Could you show that to the Board? Exhibit No 2 (Photograph is marked Exhibit 2 ) Q Can you tell me where this picture here was taken from? A Yes That was taken from my sister-in-law's front yard Q That was not taken from the church? A No Q Can you tell me where this picture was taken from? A It was taken from the church 313 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Mr Ginsburg And I gather that it was taken with that same camera? The Witness Yes Mr. Ginsburg. From the window? The Witness Yes Chairman Kenney Exhibit No 3 (Photograph is marked Exhibit 3 ) Q I have here a plan, a zoning map of the Town of Lexington, which is a certified plan, certified by the Town Clerk, which contains a scale of distances and which shows all the property involved in this particular hearing I would ask you to place a C on 36 Allen Street. Would you place a C on the 36 Allen Street property, 36 Allen Street property? A (The witness complies) Q Whether or not the cross that is shown on this particular plan close to the 36 Allen Street property is the church that you referred to pre- viously in your testimony 1 A Yes Mr Joseph M. Cohen I have talked to Mr Howe, who has been repro- ' senting the Board of Selectmen in this matter, and he stated to me that he was willing to agree that Route 2 is both a state highway and a high- way within the state primary system. Q Is there a conservation area of the Town of Lexington nearby that you are familiar -With, Mr Costello? A Yes, there is, on the corner of Allen Street. Q Are you able to locate it on this plan? A Yes Part of it abuts up to my property Q Would you put on CO on the state property -- or put a ST on the conser- vation property? Chairman Kenney Are you assuming it is state owned? Mr Joseph M. Cohen No, I believe it is owned by the Town of Lexington Chairman Kenney And the ST stands for? Mr. Joseph M. Cohen I had the word state in my mind, but it stands for conservation property Now, gentlemen, I am going to ask you to study this plan so you can get an idea yourselves, using the distance scale on the plan for refer- ence so that you can determine for yourselves how far the property at 36 Allen Street is distant from the various installations, from Route 2, from the church, and from the conservation property Mr Ginsburg I'm sorry, he has asked how far 36 Allen Street -- I don't think 36 Allen Street is relevant It is 31 Allen Street. 314 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Mr Joseph M. Cohen I'm sorry, I stand corrected I stand corrected Mr Ginsburg And you have asked him to mark his premises, which is 36 Allen Street, in relationship to the conservation property, and there is not, it is not the same 31 Allen Street is not the same distance and I just don't want the record to be confused on that. Mr Joseph M Cohen Mr Grossman -- Mr Ginsburg Mr Ginsburg Mr Joseph M Cohen Mr Ginsburg, but the property that he marked is the Allen property at 31 Mr Ginsburg Let me see what is the property he is -- Mr Joseph M Cohen It's the Carroll property at 31 Allen Street Mr Ginsburg I don't see that Mr. Joseph M. Cohen We will show it to you. The Carroll property and that's at 31 Mr Ginsburg Oh, right. Mr. Josehp M. Cohen I will put a 31 on it so there will be no question Mr Ginsburg That's all right Chairman Kenney Yes, Mr Cohen, for clarification, when you re- ferred to the Carroll property at 31, I note his application that you read a few moments ago said Give a description of the premises to be used for the premises He said One acre of land located at 31 Are you referring to the Carroll property in its full 50 acres? Mr Joseph M. Cohen Yes, because there is nothing in the license which specifies which portion of the Carroll property may be used and I know that you have to drive vehicles in order to reach any particu- lar part of it and there is absolutely no way, from the public records, or from isolating any particular portion of the property or from the license Chairman Kenney That will be marked Exhibit 4 You may show Mr Ginsburg (Zoning map of the Town of Lexington is marked Exhibit 4 ) Mr Bailey It would be helpful to me if Mr Cohen suggests what we are likely to find after going through all this Mr Joseph M. Cohen I shall be glad to do so I think you will find that the conservation land is across the street from 31, it's right across the street, virtually across the street, according to this plan, from number 31 Allen Mr Bailey Now, can we stop right there Sir, is conservation land specifically mentioned in the statute? Mr Ginsburg I think No, it isn't. Mr Joseph M. Cohen The statute mentions any park, bathing beach, playground, school, church. I think if you gentlemen will take the trouble to look up the definition of park in Webster's Dictionary, you will find that land in the nature of conservation land is included within the definition of park Mr. Brown I do not believe in the Town of Lexington that is true Chairman Kenney We hear what you are saying and we will take it under consideration 315 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Mr Joseph M. Cohen I simply ask you gentlementoconsult the dictionary meaning of it for your satisfaction Mr Brown Could you give me the number of feet? Mr Bailey There is a statutory definition for the Town of Lexington Chairman Kenney Mr Bailey's point is that he feels there is a statutory definition of conservation applicable to the Town of Lexing- ton which differentiates it from park Mr Joseph M Cohen Well, I don't know and I don't, I claim to refute it I did try to find the definition in the zoning laws and I did not find any definition in the zoning laws And if there is a definition which distinguishes it from park land, I w iuld stand corrected Subject to that possibility, I would like to point out that this plan will show that the conservation land is across the street from 31 Allen Street, that the Trinity Church is within 300 feet of 31 Allen Street, and that Route 2 is a primary highway and a state highway and is in parts within 600 feet and within 1000 feet of the 31 Allen Street property Mr Ginsburg I would like to ask -- I'm sorry, is this -- I Chairman Kenney. Mr Ginsburg Mr Coh Mr en?Ginsburg Is this a statement of fact being made by you, Mr Joseph M. Cohen I consider it a statement of fact Mr Ginsburg Have you gone out and measured this? Mr Joseph M. Cohen. I have measured it according to the plan, which has a scale in it. And this is the official zoning map of the Town of Lexington Mr Ginsburg I'm sorry, and when you are saying that the various distances that you are offering, are you considering the area involved here used by John P Carroll Company for his business or are you con- sidering the perimeter of the 50 acres owned by the Carrolls? Mr Joseph M. Cohen I am considering the perimeter of 31 Allen Street I was unable to find in the license, in the plan or for that matter in the decision of the Board of Appeals, anything in it which restricted the use to any particular portion of the land Mr Ginsburg Well, I beg to -- Mr. Joseph M Cohen The land has always been described as 31 Allen Street Chairman Kenney Mr Ginsburg Mr Ginsburg I would beg to differ with Mr Cohen, but I will wait until he is done and then I will present some evidence which is directly to the contrary of what he is saying Mr Joseph M Cohen That there is a record limiting the bound- aries of the particular use? Mr Ginsburg Yes Chairman Kenney Mr Brown, did you have a question? 316 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Mr Brown Yes, Mr Chairman, I would like to ask, because I was very careful with my notes and I am sure the stenographer can back me up, but Mr Cohen said, when he was showing us the pictures, that there was 800 feet between church and junk yard and he just now said that it was 300 feet between the contested area and the church, and I would like to ask him which does he mean, 800 feet or 300 feet? Mr Joseph M. Cohen This distance of 800 feet was an estimate taken by Mr Costello and that is his estimate but I called, respect- fully, to the attention of you gentlemen, that the plan shows a differ- ent distance I am asking you to rely upon the plan Chairman Kenney I think, Mr Brown, that Mr Ginsburg intends to pursue that line of questioning Mr Ginsburg Oh, yes, I will Mr Brown. I just want to make sure I got my notes right Mr Joseph M. Cohen. With that, I will rest, gentlemen. Chairman Kenney Could I ask you a question? Mr Joseph M Cohen. Yes Chairman Kenney Would you relate your contention back to the statute again? Mr Joseph M. Cohen The requirement is that it be more than 1000 feet from the nearest edge of any highway on the interstate or primary system. Chairman Kenney Is that a requirement for Class 3 license? Mr Joseph M. Cohen Yes specifically Specifically There are other requirements in this section and I have taken only these require- ments which are pertinent, but this is, it starts out with "No license shall be granted under Section 59 to a person within Class 3, as defined in said Section 58, for a motor vehicle junk yard unless such junk yard is 1 More than 1000 feet from the nearest edge of any highway on the interstate or primary system." Chairman Kenney There was a phrase in there for a motor vehicle junk yard. Is there any other requirement for a Class 3 license? You say by definition is a motor vehicle Mr Joseph M Cohen. Class 3, I will read the definition again "Any person whose principal business is the buying of second-hand motor vehicles for the purpose of remodeling, taking apart or rebuild- ing the same or the buying or selling of parts of second-hand motor vehicles or tires or the assembling of second-hand motor vehicle parts, may be granted a motor vehicle junk license " This is Class 3, I believe it follows the wording of the license that was actually issued And again, of course, I call your attention to the fact that in the application for the license, the principal business of the applicant is described as that of a motor vehicle junk dealer 317 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Chairman Kenney The map will be Exhibit 4 Mr Ginsburg -- are you through, Mr Cohen? Mr Joseph M. Cohen. No Then, Clause 2 of subsection C of 59A reads "More than 600 feet from any other state highway "3 More than 300 feet from any park, bathing beach, playground, school, church or cemetery, and is not within ordinary view therefrom. "4. Is screened from view, either by natural objects or well con- structed and properly maintained fences at least six feet high and in accordance with regulations as promulgated by the Department of Public Works and as specified on said license." With that, I will rest Chairman Kenney Thank you, Mr Cohen. Mr Ginsburg, questions of Mr Cohen? Mr. Ginsburg No, I won't ask him any questions I will just -- Chairman Kenney Make a statement? Mr Ginsburg Yes, I will (The witness steps down ) Mr. Ginsubrg I think it might help if I go into a little bit of the background and that will explain everything here Chairman Kenney Will you identify yourself with your full name and address? Mr Ginsburg My name is Edward M. Ginsburg, One Boston Place, Boston, Mass , 02108, I think I represent John P Carroll Co , Inc here I think I can help if I outline briefly the whole background The premises known as 31 Allen Street in Lexington consists of some 50 acres of land, which is commonly known as the Carroll Farm. This land has been in the hands of the Carroll family for over 150 years and indeed, there are two Carrolls, Mr John Carroll's father, who is in his seventies, and his uncle, who is in his nineties, who are still living there, farming, that is what they do John is home with his parents A number of years ago, the Town began to object to part of the use of the farm premises, which was used as a piggery, and that is the area now in question which was formerly used as a piggery Over a period of time, the Town insisted that the use as a piggery was obnoxious and began to impose restrictions so it no longer could be used as such. And as the use that the farm could be put to was gradually restricted down, down, and down, it became impossible for the Carrolls to earn enough money farming to sustain themselves and indeed pay the taxes on the pre- mises At which point, young John Carroll here came to the Court of Appeals and I think this is the fourth year that we were there in 1973, but I think we went first in 1969 or 1970 And he applied for a permit which enables him to pick up cars in the town that have been left And there has been X18 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 evidence that this was not something to be considered by this Board but by the Appeal Board, the Zoning Board of Appeals It was found that there was sufficient numbers of cars that were left around this town and the area and no way of getting rid of these old cars John Carroll would go down and he would pick them up with a small truck and he would bring them up, with a small truck, and he would bring them up to his premises and he put them on a larger truck and take them in town and sell them. Mr. Joseph M. Cohen. And what? Mr Ginsburg And sell them, sell them as a junk in town Pidk them up, take them in town, and he would sell them. And indeed, he came and he applied for a permit to do this and the permit was granted and I believe, if you do not have it here, there is a big, thick file from the Zoning Board of Appeals which you will be able to get He lived up to the terms of the permit, which was granted for a one- year period only because in that way, the Zoning Board of Appeals felt that they could keep check because if he did not comply with the permit, then they wouldn't give it to him the second year He came back the second year, they gave it to him the second year. He came back again and now he is operating under a permit that was granted in June, 1973, which very carefully spells out what Mr Carroll is allowed to do And I submit, that by no stretch of the imagination of the terms of this permit, is he operating a junk yard So we maintain that Mr Carroll is not operating a junk yard He is operating under the terms of a special permit granted by the Zoning Board of Appeals And I believe you probably have a copy of that Do they? Mr Norman P Cohen Yes Mr Ginsburg And that spells it out As I said, he has conducted his operation in such a way that the permit, this last year, will show that there were at the time he came to get his permit, 190 separate citi- zens who signed a petition in favor of his third renewal So that shows that there was obviously satisfaction with the way in which he was carry- ing it out Now, we get to the issue, the technical issue before you today, is what is known as his third class license and why he has that And I submit, at the time the license was first issued, the Board of Selectmen spelled out, they sent to Mr Carroll a covering letter that siad that the granting of this license in no way was to extend the rights that he had uder permit And I believe that is a letter, I have it, I believe it was dated in 1972, and when that first came -- do you have that -- you people-- oh, I have it, February 4, 1972, signed by Mr Robert Cataldo, the Chairman "Please be advised that the Class 3 auto dealer's license that the Board of Selectmen granted you does not in any way supersede the require- ments set forth in the Board of Appeals permit " It has been perfectly clear from the start 319 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 "All of the conditions set forth by the Board of Appeals permit are in full force and effect and any violation thereof could mean considera- tion of the canceling of your Class 3 license The Board feels very strongly that these conditions should be adhered to "Very truly yours, "Board of Selectmen, "Robert Cataldo, Chairman " And everyone received a copy of this So why, and what is the -- Chairman Kenney Could we make that Exhibit 5, then? Mr Ginsburg You may Chairman Kenney We will give you a copy back. Mr Ginsburg I will offer that as Exhibit 5 (Letter from the Board of Selectmen, Dated February 4, 1972 is marked Exhibit 5 ) Mr. Ginsburg So, it has been perfectly clear that the conditions of this license and the uses are restricted to his permit, and that is not carrying out a junk yard Now, why do we come to get a Class 3 permit, you may ask And the R answer to that is very simple, and something with which I am acquainted with becausei was the one who handled this for Mr Carroll And that is because the Registry of Motor Vehicles insisted that in order to protect the public, that the cars that Mr Carroll was towing be covered with insurance. Now, cars that have been left and deserted are often, they are unregistered and uninsured This is quite often the case Someone has one in his backyard and the car is just junk there It is just left It is unregistered and uninsured How do you get that motor vehicle out onto the public highway when you hitch it on the back of a truck to carry it off and have it insured? And the Registry said that you have got to get a dealer plate and when you tow the car, you attach a dealer plate and that makes that car regis- tered and insured in case any harm comes if that car comes loose or anything So being told that by the Registry, I went down with Mr Carroll to get a dealer plate, thinking it is a very simple thing You go down and you explain to the Registry, having the inspector out here having told you what you had to have, that you wanted a dealer plate At which point, the Registry gave us a form part of which Mr Cohen read in Now, in order to get a dealer plate, which is the plates that you have seen around, with which you can move from one vehicle to another for the purpose of having them insured on the highway, you fall into one of three categories, one of three broad categories You are either a Class 1 license, and that means you buy and sell brand- new cars That's in effect what it says Or you fall into Class 2 and that means that you buy and sell second- , hand cars 3.20 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Or everything else is Class 3 John does not buy and sell brand new cars He is not in the auto- mobile business of buying and selling second-hand cars He picks up cars that have been left He tows them to his place He then puts them on a large truck and takes them into town And they said that falls into Class 3 So you fill out your permit for a Class 3 And then the Registry people said, the supervisor said, that, well, now you have to get back before we can approve it, you have got to go back to the Board of Selectmen So we came back to Mr Cataldo, ex- plained to him what the situation was, actually, to get the dealer plate is to protect everybody, it was not to expand his activities, it was as a protection so the cars were registered and insured as they were being towed around And for that reason the Selectmen issued the Class 3 license because without the Class 3 license -- and you have a copy of the form -- the Registry won't issue dealer plates So the purpose of getting the license was not to operate a junk busi- ness but just to get a dealer plate so the automobiles that are being towed would be registered and insured so if anything happened, the public would be protected That is the sole reason behind that And I submit, first of all, that in no way within the meaning of General Laws, Chapter 140, Section 59A, is a junk yard being carried on here, because that is not permitted to Mr Carroll under the terms of his permit and he is governed under the terms of his permit, which you have before you His place serves as a depot where cars are taken in on smaller vehicles And now he has it so it is much better than it was in the beginning. He's got a crusher that is sound-proof You really don't hear anything It crushes it all down And they are put on a large truck and taken into town And so, this is not a junk business, number one Number two, the operation that is going on here uses, to be exact, I think we've said we applied for two acres, but the area involved is actually an acre One acre of 50 acres on the Carroll premises, And it is the area that was formerly used for the piggery, and I submit this is a less obnoxious use than the piggery was, by any standard. Second, Mr. Cohen, in response to a question by your Chairman what the requirements are under 59A, if indeed they are applicable here, and I don't think they are, said that the area is not to be, "In ordinary view " In ordinary view And I submit that if you go up on the church premises up above the ground with a Zoom lens camera to take a picture, and by taking a picture with a special lens camera you are able to con- centrate on one spot in the whole 50 acres, that that is not what is meant by the statute, "In ordinary view," because in truth and in fact, this whole operation is very well protected and concealed from view as the permit indicates The permit itself, which was granted this year by the Board of Appeals, indicates that it was not in view You may all go 111 321 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 up yourself and see There is not a six-foot fence, as is required by this statute, there is an eight-foot fence There is an eight-foot fence around one side of this and everything else involved is in a valley Three sides, you cannot see anything because it's down in a valley The fourth side, the only side that is open at all, is con- cealed by an eight-foot fence So you cannot see any of this operation from any of the streets involved -- oh, I'm sorry, I think if you, there are times, if you get far enough away and up high enough, you can see the very top of the crane, but you wouldn't know what it is because that comes up above the fence Now, Mr Cohen here has talked about distances and what Mr Costello estimated or guesstimated they were and what he has estimated or guess- timated they are, and I would like to tell you not an estimate or a gues&tbmate but what they are actually because Mr Carroll, who I will ask to testify, went to the State Department of Public Works and he bor- rowed what is known as an autometer or something like that, that you can carry and it will tell you exact distances Now, when I am telling you these distances, these are not the distances from the perimeter of the Carroll farm, which is 50 acres, which is ridic- ulous and means nothing These are the distances from the area involved, the one acre involved from the fence where the operation takes place Now, this area involved from the state highway, which is Route 2, to the nearest part involved from Route 2 by a direct walk to the nearest area where this operation is involved is 4700 feet 4,700 feet From Waltham Street by a direct route, it is 2,183 feet To the conservation land, which is not park land, but conservation land, by the most direct route, which necessitates walking across some- body else's property in order to measure it because there is an intervening property between the Carroll property and the conservation land, is 480 feet. To the church, to the driveway of the church, the nearest part of the church property, is 1488 feet And indeed, to Mr Costello, to his driveway, is 976 feet And I would ask you that if any of you had any interest at all, you are welcome to go up and to view it as I am sure you probably have It is the most open now as it ever is If you go by when the leaves are on the trees, before the leaves have fallen off the trees, you really don't see anything at all because the leaves on the trees shield everything It is wide open now because the leaves are off of the trees but through most of the year you can't see anything at all And I would just call Mr Carroll to ask him to testify as to these distances that he has measured off John I 322 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 III JOHN P CARROLL (Sworn) DIRECT EXAMINATION By Mr Ginsburg Q Will you please tell the Selectmen your full name and address? A My name is John P Carroll, I live at 31 Allen Street, Lexington Q Are you the president of John P Carroll Co , Inc ? A Yes, I am. Q And will you tell us who you live with? A I live with my mother, my father, and my uncle Mr Joseph M Cohen Excuse me, I don't know, are you suggesting that, I don't mean any disrespect of his father, uncle, and mother, but are you suggesting that this is relevant to the inquiry? Mr Ginsburg No, No Mr Joseph M. Cohen. Thank you I was just wondering Q And you live there at 31 Allen Street? A Yes Q Will you tell us what are these premises, is this what is known as the -- A This is known as the Carroll_Farm Q And it has been owned by? A By the Carrolls, by my father and my grandfather for 150 years, its been in the Carroll name Q At some time did you begin the business in question here now? A Yes, I did Q Can you tell us what that was? A Oh., it was approximately about four to five years ago Q Is that what it was? A Yes Q And when you began it, did you come before the Board of Appeals and get a permit? A Yes, I did Q Will you tell us, roughly, what the business is? A The business is picking up, you know, old cars and towing them back to my property and putting them on a larger truck and hauling them into Boston and selling them to the pulverizer company Q Do you operate under certain restrictions as to the number of cars and everything? A Yes, I do Q Are you inspected by the town? A Yes. Q How often? A Well, sometimes as much as four times a month, sometimes as little as twice a month 32: Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Q At some time, did you make an application in 1972 to get the Class 3 license? A Yes, I did Q What was the purpose of that? A The purpose of that was to get dealer plates so I could put the dealer plates on the cars, the unregistered cars so I could tow them back to my premises Q Did you have to get the license in order for the Registry to give you the dealer plates? A Yes, I did. Q Was there any other reason you came to get the Class 3 license? A Well, how it all started was, I got stopped by the Registry one day with a truck that I was using and the truck, they, you know, said it was unregistered, that it was, you know, improper use of it I used the truck for two purposes I used it in the winter time for a sander, and I used in the summertime as a tow truck, and they said, you know, I could not do this and I would have to get a dealer plate or I would, you know, reregister the same truck but call it something else because, you know, I would remove the back, you know, in the winter time and put a wrecker on it, you know, for the summer use for towing of the cars and that's what made me apply for this third class license, you know, sole purpose of getting the dealer plates. Q And that is the sole purpose that is what it is and that is what it has been? A Yes Q First, can you tell us over the past few years what have you done to get the area so it's enclosed off? A I have fenced off the only visible spot of the yard, of the auto depot The rest of it is sitting, in like a valley, that is screened by, you know, a high hill and shrubbery on the other sides Q And the side that was open, you have, how have you screened it off? A I put up an eight-foot fence Q An eight-foot fence? A Yes Q And the area involved, Mr Carroll, in the operation of your business, consists of how much? A Of one acre Q And the whole farm consists of how many? A Of 50 acres Q Before you did this, was there some problems that your family was having in paying the taxes and maintaining the place? A Yes, you know, it was very difficult, the taxes are, you know, quite high on the property Q Did something happen to the farm business? A Well, you know, the pigs, you know, they went out of the pig business, so, you know, it was very hard to maintain the farm to keep it up 324 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Q Did you go out and make certain measurements? A Yes, I did. Q What did you use to make these? A I went to the Department of Public Works in the state and they have this wheel that you use for measuring the lines on the road. I asked to borrow it and they were, you know, kind enough to let me use it. And I walked off the distance from -- Q Let me ask you Did you walk off the distance? I have read certain distances; are those the figures that you gave to me? A Yes, they are Q That you walked off? You might give it again What is the distance from the nearest part of the area involved in your business to Route, 2? A It was 4700 feet. Q And from the nearest part of your business to Waltham Street? A It was 2183 feet, to be exact. Q And from the nearest part of your business to the conservation land? A Was 482 feet. Q Now, in order to do that, is that directly adjacent or do you have to go across somebody else's land? A I have to go across somebody else's land. Q Whose land do you have to go across? A That property was the Winstons' property Q And from the area involved to the church is how far? A From the to the church property, to the church driveway? Q Yes, the church driveway A Was 1488 feet. Q And indeed, how far is the area involved from Mr Costello's driveway? A It was 976 feet to the end of his driveway Q There have been certain pictures that Mr Costello introduced that were taken with a special lens from -- Mr Joseph M Cohen Well with all due respect, Mr Ginsburg, I don't think it has been established that this was any particular kind of lens Mr. Ginsburg With a special camera. Mr Joseph M Cohen With a camera that Mr Costello rented I don't think he was able to describe it. Q I ask you, if you go up to the church and you stand at the driveway there, the nearest part to your premises, can you see what this picture depicts? A No, because there's trees in the foreground here, those are the tops of the trees, you can't see the sander from the front of the lot, and also there are houses in front of these trees, there are three houses. And you can't even see my house, standing at the church property Q And that same thing would be true of these other pictures? A Yes. 32 5 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Q Which he has introduced Would it be fair to say, Mr Carroll, that from any place off of your property, off of the acreage involved in the Allen Farm, that this operation is not in ordin- ary view? A No. Q Is it or is it not in ordinary view? A It's not in ordinary view Mr Ginsburg Thank you, very much. If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer anything Chairman Kenney Do any members of the Board have any questions? Mr Cohen, do you have any questions of Mr Carroll? Mr Joseph M Cohen. Yes, I do Mr Ginsburg One other thing, I have other people here who are neighbors and would also be pleased to testify on the ordinary view, if you would like them to testify, or if you would just like a show of hands Chairman Kenney I think at the end, a show of hands, unless there is something extraordinary that you want Mr Ginsburg No, I believe the facts are shown in the permit as to these premises Thank you Chairman Kenney Mr Cohen CROSS-EXAMINATION By Mr. Joseph M. Cohen Q I have an aerial photograph of the locus that has been issued by the Town. Mr Carroll, when is the last time you visited the church? A When was the last time I visited the church? Q Yes A What church? Q The church we have been talking about A Oh, I think it was last winter Q Last winter? In January or February? A No, I'm not sure of the date, I, we plow it up there and that's what I was up there, the purpose of it. Q Incidentally, do you have a red truck that you use in connection with your business? A All my trucks are red Red and black. Q Where do you keep those trucks? A Where do I keep them? Q Yes A Which one? Q Trucks that you use in connection with your business A Where do I keep them? 326 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973111 Q Yes A I have three trucks in connection with it, I keep one in the back and one in, generally two down in the yard because I had trouble with vandalism and, you know, damage on them Q You keep one of those trucks between the fence and Allen Street, don't you? A Between the fence and Allen Street? Q Yes A No Q You are sure about it? A Yes, unless it could have been at lunch time or something, but -- Q I see. Well, how would 4 00 o'clock in the afternoon be? A Possibly one of the drivers was coming in with it Q Incidentally, if there was a truck between the fence and Allen Street, it would be visible from the parking lot in front of the church, wouldn't it? A Yes Q I call your attention to this large piece of machinery that has a beam sticking up into the air Can you tell us what kind of equip- ment that is? A That is a Beyers Crane Q What is it used for? A What is it used for? 111 Q Yes A For loading of the cars Q How high does it extend up in the air? A 28 feet Q And it is part of your operation? A Yes Q And your fence is eight-foot high? A Yes Q Mr Carroll, can you tell us whether or not that crane can be visible from the front yard of the church? A The boom part, you know, possibly Mr Ginsburg I believe I testified it was I said that the top of the crane was visible Q And that crane is part of your operation, isn't it? A Yes Q How do you get equipment in and out of this yard that you have behind the fence or within the fence? A Drive it in Q Drive it in? And where do you drive it in from? A What do you mean, from the driver's seat or from the -- Q Well, did you drive it in from some street? A Allen Street 111 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Q You have some paths or roads on your land between Allen Street -- A Yes, I do Q -- and the fence? So it is fair to say, isn't it, Mr Carroll, that you use an area between Allen Street and your fence for the purpose of driving these vehicles that you pick up in and out of the com- pound there and the fence? A I have to get to the location Q Certainly, and you can't operate this business without driving these or without driving from Allen Street up until the fence; isn't that correct? A Yes, I also use Route 2 and Allen Street and Waltham Street Q How do you get to Route 2? A By means of driving down Waltham Street Q How do you get to Waltham Street A By driving down Allen Street. Q All right But the fact of the matter is, isn't it Mr Carroll, that you use the area between Allen Street and the fence in which you keep the cars in order to bring the cars to and from Allen Street? A Yes. Q And'that is part of your land that you absolutely have to use in order to carry on the business; isn't that correct? A Yes. Q And it goes right up to Allen Street, isn't that correct? A Yes Q And incidentally, when you drive out of your property, you go right by the school which is across the street, don't you? A No, I don't Q What point do you go by the school? A The school is set off at a distance. It's on Stedman Road Q But your route does take you by the school, does it not? A The school is set off Q When you first applied for a permit, how long ago was it, Mr Carroll? A Oh, it was approximately four years ago The date is on the permit I'm not positive Q You were given a permit for one year, isn't that correct? A Yes, I was Q And so, is it fair to state, Mr Carroll, that when you got your first permit, it was for one year and you understood possibly that you may not be able to operate the business next year? A Yes. Q And your second permit was for one year, was it not? A Yes Q And the third permit was for one year? A The third permit, no, I -- Q The third permit was for three years? A The third permit was for three years, I believe 63-218 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Mr Ginsburg I will stipulate that the permit that is in effect since June of 1973 is for three years The others before that were for one year I am not positive whether this is the third permit or the fourth one But I can check that Q At the time the license that we are talking about was issued in January of 1973, you had a permit that was due to expire That is the permit from the Board of Appeals that was due to expire in June, ian't that correct? A Yes Q So you knew there was a possibility that this business that you were in would be temporary? A Yes Q Do I understand you to say that you don't operate an automobile junk business? A No, I don't Q I ask you whether this is a copy of the application that you filed for a third class permit with the Registry of Motor Vehicles, you remember filling out that application? A Yes, I do Q And I call your attention to the answer to the question -- Mr Ginsburg I would be happy, to save time, to offer the -- Mr Joseph M Cohen. May I see a copy of this? Mr Ginsburg The permit, as I said in my statement, there are three types of categories you can fall into. Either you are selling brand new cars, which is a first-class one; or you are selling second- hand cars, which is Class 2; or they have taken the phrase junk, which is classed 3, and that is the only one he could fall into, and that is the purpose of it. Q Mr Carroll, do you remember answering some questions in this appli- cation for the Registry? A Yes, I do Q And I call your attention to the question "Is your principal busi- ness that of a motor vehicle junk dealer?" What is your answer? What is your answer, Mr Carroll? A That is the question that is asked by the Registry, the way they stated it down there -- Q Please, Mr Carroll A -- is -- Q Mr Carroll, will you please just tell me what answer did you give to it, a very simple question "Is your principal business that of a motor vehicle junk dealer?" A Yes Q All right And you signed, underneath that answer? A No, on the next page I did. :32e7 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Q Next page? And the next page was a continuation of this page that has these questions, was it not? A Right. Mr. Joseph M. Cohen May I offer this, Mr Ginsburg? Mr. Ginsburg I would be happy to offer it Chairman Kenney I have a copy Mr. Ginsburg I think they probably have a copy Mr. Joseph M. Cohen Thank you. Chairman Kenney Could we respectfully ask, Mr Cohen, some of these things I don't think they are in doubt Maybe we can go a little faster I don't wish to impede you in any manner, sir, but if you could bring the questioning in to how it relates to the Class 3 license a little more quickly I think we are all willing to concede that he answered Yes to that, and then get your point Mr Bailey. I have one other comment, Mr Chairman, if I may? Chairman Kenney Sure Mr. Bailey I sure wish Mr. Cohen would make his points at the end of a line of questioning I realize he is getting things on the record but this is a hearing and he pursued an extensive line of questioning regarding the fact that Mr Carroll, of necessity, had to move the vehicles over highways and streets, and then dropped it Mr. Joseph M Cohen All right My point is, I respectfully submit, that the use of this land is not limited to the area within the fence This use also includes carrying vehicles back and forth between Allen Street and the fence So that when the applicant is attempting to use the fence as a measuring distance, it isn't an accurate measuring dis- tance He should be measuring from where his land abuts Allen Street because this is where the use actually begins. And if there is any question as to whether that is part of the use, it is very obvious that if he couldn't drive the vehicles across his land from Allen Street to the fence, and drive it out again, that he couldn't conduct the use Now, in respect to these questions about whether or not he is oper- ating a motor vehicle junk license, although he insists in saying he isn't, the very simple fact is that he answered a question to that effect and said it was his principal business The license that he asked for and was granted is worded in the ex- act language of that part of the statute, Section 58, which is defined as Class 3 And that statute says that this is a motor vehicle junk license Mr Ginsburg Your Honor, I don't want to cut him off -- Mr Joseph M. Cohen. Then please don't. Mr Ginsburg I think we have been through, I think he read this all in at the very beginning Mr Joseph M. Cohen. I was asked to make a point as to my question- ing and I am trying to be as responsive as I possibly can Chairman Kenney Mr. Cohen 111 Q (By Mr Joseph M Cohen) Mr Carroll, when you transport these vehicles, that you pick up, you buy them from somebody, don't you? e)ti Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 A No, I don't Q Well, don't you send in reports to Mr. DeFeo at the Registry of Motor Vehicles? A I don't know who I sent them to, I send them to the Auto Theft Bureau. Q And they are on blue slips? A They are on white slips Q You say your reports are on white slips? A And blue slips Q And blue slips And you sent them to Mr DeFeo on North Washington Street, the office of the Registry of Motor Vehicles, slips of all your purchases and sales? A Purchases and sales, if you want to word it that way Q You buy these vehicles and you sell them, don't you? A No, I don't buy them Q You never buy them? A No Q How do you obtain them? A How do I obtain them? Did you ever try to get rid of a junk car? Q I have never had any experience whatsoever Chairman Kenney Did you ever buy one? The Witness On occasions I have, yes Chairman Kenney. It might be helpful Mr Carroll, not to try to invade his questioning Just get right down to it Occasionally you do buy one, lots of times they are given to you or you acquire them just to get them off the street? The Witness Yes. Q And when you get them, you transport them on a vehicle, isn't that correct? A Yes Q And the vehicle that you trasnport them on has to be registered? A Right Q Are you saying that the junk car that is being transported also has to be registered? A Yes Mr Brown. Could I follow up and ask why, this question, I am interested in Mr Bailey's question Chariman Kenney I assume you are attempting to bring out, sir, why he wanted the plate, right? Mr Joseph M Cohen That is correct I frankly thought that possi- bly, now, if you were carrying a junk vehicle, you didn't need plates for the junk vehicle, but you needed it for the vehicle that was carrying it, but the witness has informed me that you need it for the junk vehicle too I will take his word for it 331 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Q Anlincidentally, when you remove these vehicles from your premises, they have been crushed? A Yes. Mr. Joseph M. Cohen I would want to make one other point and I would have no further questions to ask this witness Q And the reason, I was asked to explain the point of my questions, and that was in connection with this crane that rises some 28 feet high, and is visible from behind the fence The witness has admitted that it is easily visible from the front yard of the church It is in ordinary view and it is an integral part of it The Witness The boom part only Mr Joseph M Cohen I understand I have no further questions Chairman Kenney Do you have any further comments, Mr Ginsburg? Mr. Ginsburg The only other comments I would have is I don't think there are too many, but some of the neighbors heard of this hearing here tonight, and they just wanted to make themselves known, I think Chairman Kenney So if they -- Mr Cohen, would you care to comment on this? Mr Joseph M. Cohen Well, my only point is, I am not saying the feel- ings of the residents of the area are not of importance, but I am just wondering if in this particular question it is a question of, -you know, taking a vote or it is a question as to whether or not the statute is being complied with. Chairman Kenney Mr Cohen, under a public hearing advertised by the Selectmen, the citizens do have a right to speak Mr Joseph M. Cohen I have no objection to their speaking Chairman Kenney. I am just attempting to save us all some amount of time I would rather have a series of people just get up, conceivably, and support what Mr Carroll has said or Mr Costello, and if they could do it by a show of hands, I think the Board would be just as pleased. Would you agree to that, sir? Mr Joseph M. Cohen. I have no objection to the show of hands, but I would respectfully submit that, with all due respect, I believe it is irrelevant to the issue before the Board In other words, a public hearing and people may obviously come up and present evidence and arguments but I don't think whether or not they are in favor or I'm in favor or Mr Costello is in favor or Mr Swenson, who is represented here tonight, is in favor I don't think what happens -- Chairman Kenney I think I will phrase the question of people who are willing to support the viewpoint which has been presented first by yourself and Mr Costello Any additional people? Being none -- sir? Mr. Kilgoar My name is George Kilgoar, Attorney for Bertha Swenson, 28 State Street, Boston, and we are in complete agreement with Mr Cohen's presentation on behalf of Mr. Costello Mr Joseph M. Cohen Where is Swenson's land? I Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Mr Kilgoar. That land has recently been sold Mr Joseph M. Cohen Where is it, where is it located? Mr Kilgoar That is on Allen Street Mr Joseph M. Cohen Where on Allen Street? Mr Kilgoar 29 Allen Street Chairman Kenney Did you say a portion of the land has been sold? Mr Kilgoar A portion has been sold, the back portion Chairman Kenney A portion And you represent the abutters? Mr Kilgoar Yes Mr Ginsburg May I just ask him a question? Are these the people that want to buy a strip from the Carrolls so as to extend the size of their lot? Mr Kilgoar I don't know anything about buying a portion of the land. I don't know what that has to do with this hearing Chairman Kenney Are there any people here -- Mr Ginsburg I think it did, your Honor, I think it does. Chairman Kenney Any people here who wish to, by a show of hands, identify themselves as supporting the testimony given by Mr Carroll? (Some people raised their hands ) Chairman Kenney Hands are sufficient, Mr Cohen, or should I take names? Mr Joseph M. Cohen. If it please your Honor, when you say support the testimony, I don't, I respectfully must comment that I don't be- lieve that this is specific enough I don't know which specific testi- money they supported. I don't know whether or not, for example, they have gone up the hill Chairman Kenney This is not exactly a court of law, this is a Selectmen's hearing We wish to get an indication from these people if they generally agree with the presentation as put on by Mr Carroll I don't want Mr Ginsburg to haul them up here one by one It will be a long time. So we will take the show of hands once more Mr Bailey Could I suggest that possibly a way around it, a show of hands of the people who take no offense of the operation as conducted by Mr Carroll Would that be an acceptable position for you two gentlemen? Mr Joseph M. Cohen Ifthese people want to say they take no offense, I take no objection to that. Mr Ginsburg I believe, on that issue, which came up at the point of the renewal of the permit, the evidence is that there were 190 people who signed a petition On the issue here, I believe, as to what Mr. Carroll testified to as to the facts on the distances and the ordinary view and the kind of operation. And I will also offer at this time, because I have not seen them because I don't think they are available to me, I will offer all reports and inspections made by the inspectors here and by the police as to whether or not the conditions of this permit have been lived up to, and I would offer that and make that part of this record 33 3 Selectmen,s Meeting November 12, 1973 Chairman Kenney I will ask for a show of hands, on your advice, Mr Counsel, on those supporting Mr Carroll Mr Norman P Cohen They don't take any offense Chairman Kenney The number of people that take no offense at the conduct of operations or just described by Mr Carroll (Some people raised their hands ) Chairman Kenney 23 Mr. Brown I have 24 Mr Joseph M. Cohen. I wonder if I might be permitted -- Chairman Kenney Two counters have 24, so the record will show 24, Mr Cohen Mr Joseph M Cohen I wonder if I might ask Mr Carroll just a couple of more questions before we adjourn Very briefly Chairman Kenney Briefly, and they concern something you have not asked him before? Mr Joseph M. Cohen That is correct Q (By Mr Joseph M. Cohen, continuing) Mr Carroll, when you took these measurements, by the way, do you have any engineering training? A No Q Do you have any training in measuring distances over land? A No Q Was anybody with you when you took these measurements? A One of my help Q Is he here tonight? A No, he's not. Q Did you take any steps to make certain that you were covering the shortest distance between the two points you were measuring? A Yes Q What steps did you take? A What steps did I take? Q Yes A I walked up, I looked around, the conservation land is that way, the curve is that way, the Route 2 is that way, that's the way I went Q When you were walking, did you take steps to see that you were walk- ing in a perfectly straight line? A As direct as possible I couldn't, you know, go through people's houses or, it was tough getting over fences Q But, is there anything you did to guarantee that you were walking in a straight line when you were walking this 2000 yards or so forth? A No Mr Joseph M Cohen Thank you. I would just call to the attention I think it is common knowledge that if people are walking distances, if they don't have any engineering, they generally walk in a circular manner Mr Ginsburg I object unless Mr Cohen wants to qualify as an expert I think that is uncalled for 334 Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Mr Joseph M Cohen How many stories have you read about where people get lost walking around in circles? Mr Ginsburg He wasn't lost. Chairman Kenney I want the record to reflect that we con- tacted the Chief of Police last week and asked him if he had any official complaints of the Carroll Company, Incorporated. On Novem- ber 7, the Chief of Police has reported that he has had no official complaints And also for the record, I would like to enter the inspections of the Building Inspector If you care to have a copy, we will send them to you, Mr Cohen These are a record of the inspections going back to 1972 and up until November 5, when I requested them from the Building Inspector They will be Exhibit 6 (Record of Inspections by the Building Inspector is marked Exhibit 6 ) Chairman Kenney And I declare this hearing closed, and the Board of Selectmen will take it under advisement. Thank you Mr Ginsburg Thank you very much Mr Joseph M. Cohen. Thank you (The hearing concluded at 9 40 p m ) (signed Annette Nahigyan Certified Shorthand Reporter) Chairman Kenney requested that the Board vote to set the dates for the Annual Town Election and the Annual Town Meeting Upon motion duly made and seconded, it was voted to call the Election Annual Town Election on Monday, March 4, 1974 Town Upon motion duly made and seconded, it was voted to set the poll- Meeting ing hours for 7 00 a m to 8 00 p.m Upon motion duly made and seconded, it was voted to call the Annual Town Meeting for April 1, 1974 at 8 00 p.m in Cary Memorial Hall Warrant Upon motion duly made and seconded, it was voted to close the War- Closes rant on December 21, 1973 at 4 30 p m. Upon motion duly made and seconded, it was voted to table the list Street of street lighting requests presented by the Director of Public Works/ Lights Engineering Upon motion duly made and seconded, it was voted to table the re- port from the Director of Public Works/Engineering in reply to a letter from the Belfry Hill Association Cary Hall The Board discussed and approved the request from the Lexington Statues Historical Society for permission to the Smithsonian Institution to photograph statues in the Cary Memorial Building under the supervi- sion of a member of the Historical Society Selectmen's Meeting November 12, 1973 Upon motion duly made and seconded, it was voted to grant permission to the Smithsonian Institution to photograph the Minuteman of '75 and the Union Soldier to be included in the archives of the Lexington Historical Society Mr McSweeney came into the meeting at 9 48 p m. and was requested Traffic to contact the Chairman of the School Committee and invite him to send Committee a representative to the Traffic Safety Committee meeting when an item School of interest to the school department is discussed Rep Upon motion duly made and seconded, it was voted to go into Execu- tive Session for the purpose of discussing, deliberating or voting on Executive matters which, if made public, might adversely affect the public secu- Session rity, the financial interests of the Town or the reputation of a person After discussion of matters concerning land, it was voted to go out of Executive Session Upon motion duly made and seconded, it was voted to adjourn at 11 12 p.m. A true record, Attest Eecu�erk, Selectmen / 1