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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1977-06-16-BOS-min SPECIAL SELECTMEN'S MEETING June 16, 1977 A special meeting of the Board of Selectmen was held in the Selectmen's Meeting Room, Town Office Building, on Thursday, June 16, 1977, at 7 00 p.m Vice Chairman Battin, Mr Bailey, Mr Busa, Mrs Miley, Mr Kent, Mr Hutchinson, Town Manager; Mrs McCurdy, Executive Clerk were present Binding The Board of Selectmen had invited Representative Carol Arbitration Amick to attend the meeting to answer questions on her position Police & on compulsory and binding arbitration While awaiting her Fire appearance, discussion was held by the Board. Mrs Battin introduced Mrs Grace Erdman, member of the Board of Selectmen of Bedford. Mrs Miley reported to the Board that she, Mrs Battin, and Mrs Erdman were at the State House on Wednesday Mrs Miley We did lobby as best we could We spoke to our rep- resentatives and I don't know what the final vote was as far as their vote was concerned but I know we lost in binding arbitra- tion the amendments of the Governor but I'm not sure just how they came through for us Mr Bailey You don't know how Carol voted yesterday? Mrs Battin No we don't; we don't know how any of them voted When we were there, Mr Dickson and Mr Cole were locked in -- we had to send notes into them No one offered the Governor's amendments on the Senate floor so it then went to the House It is crucial now The Governor is planning to veto There are votes to override it in the House It is within one or two votes to sustain his veto in the Senate Mr Hutchinson I have been attending a seminar for citizens once a week over a 6-week period at the State House The Legis- lative leaders have been running the seminar and educating us on how they work I happened to ask Senator Harrington what the prospects were He indicated to me just what you said that there are enough votes to override in the House; in the Senate it's going to come down to within one or two votes I asked him what his position was He said that in the event that there is a tie, he will vote with the Governor He has told the firemen that Mrs Battin Then he has made a public statement Mr Hutchinson I learned today that the Senate President does not normally vote in these matters but I guess it is really coming I didn't get a chance to clarify if a two-thirds vote of the Senate would be necessary or if it is a majority or a tie or whatever it is 485 Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 Alice Pierce Does anyone know is the vote likely to be taken before next Tuesday or after? Mrs Battin I think it depends a lot on what Representative Amick says to us today whether she is going to vote to sustain or not Mr Hutchinson The question is, when is the vote going to be taken? Mrs Battin He will send the veto as quickly as possible Alice No I am curious about when it will be Mr Hutchinson In other words, is it possible that the Governor could veto today and it be voted on by Monday or Tuesday, and I don't think that's possible Mrs Battin No, that's what the Local Government Advisory Committee was saying The Governor was going to wait and see depending on how she was feeling He'd put the veto in as fast as possible so the vote gets pushed before she's on the Senate floor Mr Kent Unless she's on our side Mrs Battin We're asking her as our representative, is she willing to vote to sustain the Governor's veto? And the Governor has the op- tion of when he submits it and when the action is taken so it depends on whether who wants her on the floor or not Grace Erdman It is Bunker Hill day, a state holiday Lady Does anyone know the position of the contenders for the other Senate seat? Which will also be voted on next Tuesday Mrs Battin We were in Everett yesterday and they did not know (Everett Councilmen) That is not an issue that's been raised The two Councilmen from Everett were on the other side Bill Murphy, President of Massachusetts League of Cities and Town, Chairman of the Local Government Advisory Committee, and Selectmen from Chelmsford came into the meeting Mrs Battin to Bill Burphy The only reason we are having Bedford and Lexington here is that officially, Carol is our representative and we are talking to her as our representative not as a potential contestant (Senatorial) Mr Murphy Do you have a copy of what her answer was? Mrs Battin No Sheila did say that that one paragraph that MLCT said was not in the bill, is They started reading it carefully and they were wrong Bill Burphy I guess the concern one has in reading that letter is she tries to offer something to everbody (Letter to the Mass League) and she says that she would like it to go to the voters for referen- dum. That's on one side and the other side, she's going to vote for it; and I don't think you can be for both sides of the issue - the public may buy that cause they are not familiar with the issues Mrs Battin That was the feeling, she camein and talked to all of us and knew she couldn't say Bill Murphy She believes that's important that she better support 4[86 Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 the Governor because it's the only way it can be angled? She has a chance to be heard Mrs Battin to Mr Hutchinson Tell Bill what Senator Harrington said Mr Hutchinson I happened to see Senator Harrington today at a seminar and I did ask him what the status was of the bill - and obviously it's on the Governor's desk and he's going to veto He indicated it's going to come down to one or two votes within the Senate, the only place that it can be rejected so all the more critical in this type of situation He did indicate to me that apparently he's taking a position in the event there is a tie, that he would vote with the Governor to defeat it I assume that it's a two-thirds override so how can there be a tie in the Senate anyway? Carol Amick came in at 7 12 p.m Mrs Battin This is a meeting with the Boards whose Towns you represent; we have also invited Bedford and Billerica -- we are concerned with you as our representative about how you voted which seems to be at variance with what we understood you to say when you met with us previously There seems to be sort of confusion on both sides as to what the municipal stand is and what we feel is a compromise and also what you do As you know, this is probably one of the most serious issues facing the Mass League of Cities and Towns and the Mass Selectmen's Association The property taxes across Massachusetts went up 13-1/2 percent this year and they are likely to go up as much next year We really are frightened at what's happening with compulsory binding arbitration This is the biggest and most concerted push we've had As you know it's going to be in the Senate as to what happens whether the Governor's veto is going to be sustained We want to tell you how strongly we felt to find out how you feel and if there could be a meeting of the minds As background, I would say that, because you have felt that a com- promise is acceptable, that as far as the Mass League and Mass Selectmen are concerned the compromise from the Public Service Committee we don't feel is a compromise at all It didn't cover anything about supervisors; the only management rights it gave were those that were mandated by the Mass Labor Relations Committee in the Danvers' case; nothing about triggering off arbitration, it applies to everybody, and very little additional in terms of ability to pay The only compromise the Mass League and Mass Selectmen's Association have been for is the one the Governor has offered. That, we have never felt, was compromise, that we either publicly or pri- vately as far as I know stated we felt it was acceptable Grace Erdman The first person we saw when we went to the State House yesterday, those of us who were there to lobby, said to us, "Are you here in behalf of the community or in behalf of the police and -Ih"IT Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 fire?" And I thinkall' read the say it You probably letter I gave you yesterday Carol Amick Yes I didn't expect that it was going to come up as quickly as it did yesterday It was too bad as it would have been interesting to see how people would react to the letter Grace had a letter in the Bedford Minute-man urging people to contact me, and the only thing I can say is we have gotten two calls this afternoon from people who supported how I voted So I have a feeling we are going to see a move afoot to have people contacting me on both sides of the question I hope people will write to me from the other side Grace Erdman When you came before our Board the question was posed to you, "Do you oppose the extension of compulsory and binding arbi- tration? And our minutes show that you responded, "Yes " Carol This is where a lot of the confusion has occurred and as I was correctly quoted by the Minute-man last week as saying that I did not explain at that time and you made the assumption that I would not vote to extend the present law That meant that I would not vote for any kind of binding arbitration of any sort, any time, and because of the campaign that I'm in and I don't mean to use that as an excuse, it's been a very busy time for me and I don't want it to appear that I have switched the position I have always supported a kind of bind- ing arbitration for police and fire only and only then because I be- lieve we need an impasse resolution procedure rather than going to strike procedure But the failure, the failing is mine alone for not saying to you then, as apparently, and as I recall as Dickson did that night, and as some other legislator that I heard say, "Yes, we do not support the present law" but a lot of amendments may be added, things can be changed and it's very difficult to say if were going to I felt that the position I had reflected was one which I have kept That is that I would not vote for the present law Then we get into the sematics of what - Is the bill that we voted on really a compromise or not? I know the arguments from the League of Cities & Towns - I know the arguments from the other side Part of the problem, in my case, due to the fact that this became an issue or was part of my campaign and because of the fact that I've been running around as a candidate, and trying to also be a representative too, etc , was the fact that during meetings at the State House, I was led to believe, and was told by officials representing themselves to be representing Selectmen, League of Cities and Towns, etc , and maybe their comments to me were not meant to be taken on the record They were sort of off handed comments But once someone says something to me I take their word When they commented to me that they weren't happy with the compromise, but they knew that the Legislature was going to pass it, and that they were happier with what they got then what the extension of the present law, and this is where some of the confusion, I think, came Because I was led to believe from thos kind of comments -- and these are in- formal discussions that I had with various people; that they were sort of accepting their fate, sort to speak, but they didn't like it - but Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 it wasn't as bad as the other thing - was more palatable alatable And I thought, gee that's nice the both sides are trying to get together on a compromise So some of the confusion carne from a remark that I made to, I think to Marge, on Candidates Night and Marge questioned me on it that "I don't understand", and this is where some of the confusion lies But these private remarks and comments and discussions, you know, were just that - private remarks and those individuals are not pre- pared to say publicly what they said to me privately ° Mr Murphy I do know that every Legislator received a letter dated April 8, which indicated very clearly in the next few days, public service committee would report a so-called compromise bill to the Senate on compulsory binding arbitration for both the fire and police This is not a compromise, and I think it's very clear in their munici- pal position that the signatures by presence, so whatever occurred any place else is beyond me; because I try to check and see who may have been at any senator actions Carol Amick At no time did I mean to imply that it was Bill Mrs Battin Oh, no, no, but what we're trying to find out if there's anybody in our organizations who had felt like this - who was misrepre- senting the organization Mr Murphy The second point, I think that Carol had indicated that she'd only favored binding arbitration for police and fire We did send a questionnaire to all candidates to the primary and Carol's answer to the question "Are you in favor of extending final and binding arbi- tration to all public employees?" Carol's answer was "Rather than giv- ing public employees the right to strike, I would support extending binding arbitration as long as it's not the last best offer of arbitra- tion Carol Amick If I said that, I did not mean it No, I'm sorry - I'm sorry - the question was collective bargaining - I never said that, please, don't say that I want to see it No I don't support that--- where's my answer, please let me see my answer Mr Murphy That's a copy of it - I'll get you the original tomorrow Carol Amick No, please -- then I misinterpreted the question -- I have never stated publicly, and honest to God, your not going to believe this Mr Murphy Read the question Carol Amick I know, I see what the question says "Are you in favor of extending final and binding arbitration to all public employees?" And I am not and I have never been I have always said that it is only for police and fire and he has a retyped statement Mr Murphy I agree - I agree Carol Amick I would like to see my original Mr Murphy I will be glad to Carol Amick Because I remember a question on collective bargaining oh, God, no wonder you asked me that the other day I'm sorry that is not my position - it is not 489 Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 Mr Murphy One of the purposes of the questionnaire was to guarantee that there was no ambiguity in anyone's position Carol Amick I can tell you that my democratic opponent can come out publicly, and I was even saying at coffee when people were asking me differently -- and he wanted to extend it to all, and that I would only support keeping it with police and fire Mr Murphy It is on the basis of inadequate evaluation to date, I would oppose such an extension, so he may have said something publicly in Wilmington, but to us, he said this Carol Amick If I said that, it was absolutely and totally in error -- or wrote it Mrs Battin I think Mr Bailey had a question Mr Bailey How did you vote on the Governor's amendments, Carol? Carol Amick I voted for the first one - which will continue final and binding arbitration, when the labor relations commission determined that there was an unfair labor practice on the part of the town, I voted against the second amendment Mr Bailey What was the second amendment? Carol Amick The second amendment would have, in my opinion, done away with all the various aspects of my efforts on final and binding arbitration That disturbs me though because I didn't mean to say Mrs Battin Which this is one of the reasons we're asking questions, Carol Carol It sounds like everything my opponent is saying about me, fluctuating, the only question that I remember answering and you're the only ones who sent me questionnaires, so it had to be yours -- was, How do you feel about collective bargaining for public employees? And if I Mr Murphy I can give you your answer with your own signature Carol I have a copy at home -- I'll look it up Woman When the chairman was talking yesterday - you heard him say he would suggest that each of the reps that voted to extend, to ask themselves , would they vote the same if it was Walpole Guards or the State Police? Would you vote to give them compulsory and binding arbitration? Why? Carol Because when job situations where the Walpole Police have con- tracted with difficulties you bring in the State Police and you always have the National Guard, you always have another level that you deal with I just can't see though you know I feel strongly that we have got to have some way of resolving the difficulties with negotations for Police and Fire and when you get to an impasse and negotiations I don't support the striking - and people say oh, that's a threat, you know they'll never strike I don't think it's a threat - I think they will I think in Bill Murphy's town of Chelmsford, he's got a real problem, because of what's happened out there, and I can see a situa- tion where the firefighters might want to go out on strike 111 Bill Murphy I never told you they might go out on strike 49() Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 Carol Amick No, I'm talking about -- Man. They have no intention of bargaining Carol Amick No they have told me that, you know, that they, but it is realistic Carol Amick I know you look at the situation in San Francisco, and what happened out there Firefighters went out on strike - and there were fires, people were killed and I can't see that happening Mrs Battin But Carol, as Representative Frank said if they under- stand the concern than they ought to apply —that there are a lot of public safety people on the state level and they ought to do it for their own people in compulsory and binding arbitration - that water and sewer people out on strike on the state level can cause havoc Mrs Battin Mrs Miley did you have a question? Mrs Miley You disagree with Frank? Carol Amick Yes Mrs Miley I wanted to bring out Carol Amick I'm sorry all this confusion has occurred, I think Mrs Miley We're very sorry Carol Amick More specific, earlier you would have been unhappier with me longer but you'd still be unhappy with me This has not occurred because of my situation of being in the middle of a cam- paign My opponent in the primary has the support of the two groups that you know I have been pushing hard for the extension permanently not last best offer, and I have not had their support and so this was not done in any attempt to garner their support It is just a belief that I had that we've got to have an impasse resolution procedure for police and fire I'm sorry Mrs Miley I would like to read into the record tonight, some para- graphs from our January 17, 1977 selectmen's meeting "Mrs Battin addressed Representative Amick and Dickson and informed them that the Massachusetts Electmen's Association and the Massachusetts League of Cities and Towns had set up a Legislative Network for meetings to be held with our Legislators to discuss the erosion of home rule and to- night we want to discuss three bills which are unanimously supported by the Board of Selectmen Collective Bargaining, Local Aid, and State-Mandated programs Representative Dickson said that he was pleased to meet with the Selectmen and as a result of this discussion with Legislators, he hoped it would be pursued on the hill The Governor said that he absolutely will not approve plans that will compromise costs in communities, and he thinks that Legislature has got the message The Selectmen's Association is very active and Governor Dukakis has said that money will be coming back to cities and towns this year It is not a cherry sheet item Originally they were talking about 25 million but it is now down in the area of 15 million On compulsory arbitration he leaned towards an extension of time be- yond June 30, 1977 but if some reasonable ground is struck he might support it The Governor has suggested placing some kind of a limit 491 Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 on it He did not think that collective bargaining would be repealed Representative .Amick supported the positions of the Massachusetts Se- lectmen's Association and the Massachusetts League of Cities and Towns " And that's what we're basing our resolutions We sent to Town Meeting with resolutiaks, copies of which were forwarded to you and when we presented those resolutions, we represented to the town meeting that all of our representatives and senators did approve except Mr Dickson, who was not sure yet; and on the basis of that our Town Meeting unani- mously supported our resolutions including the Mass Selectmen's Association and the Mass League of Cities and Town decision which we supported on binding arbitration Mr Hutchinson Recognizing where your position is today and recogniz- ing that I'm the Town Manager negotiating these contracts, I would ask that you reconsider your position and vote against binding arbitration One of the things that I don't think people really realize is that it's anti-collective bargaining, if bargaining does not take place Now the M I T study gives reference, which I only read of in the Minute- man, has this great conclusion by some professors that it hasn't posed any problems; but in the same statement it points out that there are more impasses right now than there ever have been, and that's a very logical conclusion If you represented someone and the Town said you were only going to be given $800 as a raise, and you really wanted $900 , there is another way to go, and there's fact-finding and there's bind- ing arbitration Now, I have a friend of mine, who's a city manager of, who no longer is, and they had a fire strike for four months And there the city council, the elected officials and the manager said "we will take the heat, because that's their responsibility " I just find it incompatible, this whole idea of state mandated programs Binding arbitration is a state mandated program, we pay the bill for that, and I really think it's the local official's responsibility to decide police and fire, and things like that are going So I really think that we're eroding home rule, but more importantly we're destroying the whole idea of collective bargaining and I think those of us who negotiate contracts will tell you that you close all these gaps, I'm in fact finding with the firemen and we just went back to first base, or they did; I'm standing with the position that I made my last offer They reserve the right there was no bad faith to do that if we couldn't come to an agreement, but that's the idea When you go into arbitra- tion you give as many issues as you can to the arbitrator to create the psychology of saying He's got to give us something, and I think we're really (1) hurting collective bargaining process (2) in fact, endorsing the state mandated program that is paid for by property taxes, if there's any solvent beyond the wage guidelines the Select- men have given me we have a problem Got to go back to Town Meeting - got to get this money (we don't have that) and I think as one who believes in collective bargaining I think it's been generally advantageous for cities and towns A lot of us has been managing 192 Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 better whether we like it or not, because the unions have come forward We are now destroying the process that was created, and the text books show it will not prevent strikes It will not If we get a zero award some day from Attila the Hun you know that type of thing what will happen is that the troops will get a little restless and they will address this body anyway and the townspeople, and I think that's probably the way it should be Carol Amick But that's the binding arbitration procedure and intended not to try to prevent that, and to try to get the two sides to come to an agreement as quickly as possible I know it doesn't always happen that way Mr Hutchinson I'm saying that it's a myth to think that it's going to conclude that it's going to prevent these events from happening, and more importantly, were eroding the very responsibility, we may just as well send the budget in and say we don't know what's going to happen and let the state set it for us on a tax basis Man Are our payrolls that big? Mr Hutchinson You know that -- I'm asking that you reconsider - be- cause I gather that it's down to one or two votes and you might be that vote Carol Amick That's what I said before, I did not say clearly enough perhaps I should say now, I can't give you an answer on that so that you don't know I feel very strongly about my position and always have I would like to point out to you, I think some of you were there the other day when we had the amendments - Many, Many amendments were offered including the sending this bill back to the cities and towns and putting a local option clause on the bill I voted for that There were amendments to allow the binding arbitration decisions to receive final acceptance from the Selectmen or the City Council I voted for that There were, I think, 118 amendments in total I voted for many many of them But the bottom line was that I felt that the bill could be more palatable to me, but I felt that we needed something You have to remember that the Police and Fire Officials were lobbying us very hard for continuation permanently of the law This law came before I was in the Legislature so I don't know all the background as to how fast this occurred or whatever But we do know that making changes in the law can take a long time I know how leadership in the Legislature feels about this issue, and there was an attempt on many of our parts, including my own, because I offered an amendment which another Representative in Lexington stood up and spoke in favor of, to change the binding article laws best offered to issue by issue; knowing full well the League of Cities and Towns also didn't support issue by issue There were many attempts, and many of them I supported and I could send you copies of all and outline what the particular amendments were and again make the bill more palatable But I still feel that, under the circumstances , binding arbitration for police and fire is something we need y,. Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 Mrs Battin And you are not now reconsidering? Carol Amick Shall I say that I'll reconsider it - I don't think that's fair I can't do that Mrs Battin No, you would not vote to sustain the governor's veto, at this point? Carol Amick I don't think so I was very hopeful that the first amendment would .go through yesterday, and I thought that was an ex- cellent solution to everyone's problem I personally feel that the major reason that town budgets have increased is because of rising education costs and again I'm referring to the Selectmen and M I T Study Mrs Battin One thing Carol, one answer to the M I T Study, that you did point out They didn't look at the fringe benefits, when they were saying costs didn't go up appreciably and the fringe benefits are III as much as 45 percent; they didn't compare what's happening to tither public employees as sort of piggy back effect and they also didn't look at ability topay; they were derelict that way Interesting, in terms of excessive awards, people in the audience might want to know, continued excessive awards that seriously impact our local tax rates -- 3 1 million in Worcester, $8 00 on the tax rate, this is due to deci- sions on compulsory and binding arbitration; $200,000 award in IIIBillerica, $4 00 effect on the tax rate; $1 million award in Newton affecting the tax rate is $2 50; $2 6 million award in New Bedford, $10 00 effect on the tax rate, $750,000 award in Salem, $7 00 effect on the tax rate Carol Amick But then it goes on to explain that in most of those communities the awards were high because the salaries were so far below other levels that the awards were high to bring those salaries up to par with normal average levels, and I think some of those num- bers you quote are due to that, for that reason Mrs Battin In Newton was there a question of response to that fact? Mr Hutchinson Well, I think, the decision is what the policeman and fireman and what town employees get is the decision of their communi- ties, the people who are paying the bill In order to have a third party that will come in and say, as I just had a factfinder say to me, that he doesn't think that the cost of property taxes is a relevant item and I had the experience of serving as an arbitrator in Connecticut representing management and the whole issue is a total erosion of the local government process, if it's to have any vitality, and we worked on the middle man In the interim somebody out there that was elected, said do certain things ; those things were adopted by drug constituency and I recognize you have an obligation to the state for a constituency, but I think we're capable of making a decision to pay our employees a fair wage or not, and somehow I have a lot of confidence that our employees will articulate very well when they are dissatisfied to those people who are passing on decisions ,i. 494 Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 All of my experiences with fact finding, this is what concerns me about Legislature like binding arbitration is that the knowing of it works but we always pass Legislation for the lowest common denominator, to those communities who don't do their job and I say that's their responsibility, not ours I think that we should really look to those communities who do negotiate in good faith Carol Amick What if it is less than about 10 percent of the communi- ties that are willing? Only 10 percent are willing on binding arbi- tration because most negotiations on both sides of good faith come to a solution May I make one other comment? Yesterday, the days are all flowing together these days, we had an amendment for a non-binding referendum question on this whole idea, the issue of arbitration which has become so controversial that even though that amendment on the floor of the house died, I voted for it by the way There's going to be a real push to find out what the public sentiment really is, and I certainly will support that kind of a question on the ballot Bill Murphy I think the feeling throughout organizations is that the Legislature does not see fit to listen to our plea that we will take things over in the next State election Carol Amick I think that's a good idea, because Mrs Miley Yes, I have a question for Representative Amick Did you speak in favor of the governor's amendment yesterday? Carol Amick No, I didn't Mr Busa I just wanted to have the record clear now, that if you're elected a Senator you will not support the governor's veto Carol Amick That is correct Mr Busa That is correct And there are two other things that disturb me You say you spoke to other representatives of towns that would form your opinion of why you voted that way Were they representa- tives of the towns you represent or representatives of other towns that you don't represent? Carol Amick They were representatives of towns I represent and representatives of towns I don't represent, and Legislators from across the state and Selectmen from other towns and Fire and Police officers from other towns and different people who sat in on the different dis- cussions that I sat in on with a committee on public service Mr Busa. But there were representatives from Lexington, Bedford, Billerica that said Carol Amick I'm not saying there were any of you Mr Busa No, No But you said elected officials in Bedford and Billerica spoke to you privately Carol Amick I said representatives - people from my community Mrs 'TBattin No, we're asking about the elected Boards of Selectmen in these three towns You had said the municipal positions Carol Amick They never said a word to me one way or the other 0 K , the only people that I have heard from officially are from the Boards of Selectmen of Bedford and Lexington a 4 9:: Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 Mrs Battin And Al was asking whether they privately had told you Carol Amick None of the members of the Board of Selectmen - I didn't mean to imply that I meant people in the community who had spoken to me But the discussions that have been held by public service, like the public service communities, included individuals from various communities who were also interested in this Other representatives who are also concerned about the compromise, concerned about the extension of the law permanently which is what they were to vote You know the unions were lobbying for it Mr Busa, I understand that portion of politics, but you know you made the statement previously that someone spoke to you privately you don't want to divulge who they were, but they were elected officials and I assume --- Carol Amick No, I am sorry, I meant someone who is on the staff of the League of Cities and Towns,Selectmen's Association - yes, one of the people who works for one of those organizations are the individuals I mean Mr Busa But they were outside your constituency? Carol Amick That's correct but I was led to believe they were representing those organizations Mr Busa The only other question that disturbs me, is that the greater the lobby, the better you listen or do you listen to both and then Carol Amick No No No Mr Busa You had quite a bit of lobbying against the bill - from the Police and Fire Department Carol Amick Oh, yes, they were very unhappy with my position - they still are Mr Busa This is what confused me; at one point you said -- Carol Amick I have told them that I felt that one of the Governor's amendments was a good idea, because I told them that I didn't like the extension of last best offer permanently, if this is what they want, because I told them that we want to wait and see for the next two years and see what happens under this legislation with the Legisla- ture, the Public Service Committee, etc , watching this more closely then has obviously occurred in the past Because I told them that I was going to offer amendments and support others allowing discretion to go back to the cities and towns No, they are not happy with me They want a permanent extension Mr Busa I become confused Mrs Battin We do have to go to Burlington Mr Busa You did say that being in a political campaign and the lobbying for this bill was that you took it under consideration that the lobbyists were coming at you and they were very strongly in favor of the extension of the binding arbitration bill Carol Amick Permanent extension Mr Busa You didn't say that 496 Special Selectmen' s Meeting June 16, 1977 Carol Amick What did I say? Mr Busa I can't quote you word for word Mrs Battin Carol, if you know anything about negotiations you know you always ask for more than you expect to get They were asking for a lot more than they expected to get - they were hoping that you would vote for two years - that's what they really hoped for, and I can tell you they would be very happy Carol Amick They may be, sure, I'm sure they are happy because of the alternate that you had suggested was nothing at all, but they don't want to have to fight this again They wanted the permanent extension, that's what their lobbyists -- Other legislators and they were very unhappy, supposedly they had told us this was a public ser- vice committee because public service only came up with a two year extension, and public service included, which was then struck out by the Senate, which made me unhappy with provision that this would be studied officially for two years by this special commission made up of nine unions and union people local officials Mrs Battin I'm afraid we do have to go to Burlington now, unfortu- nately Is there anyone who hasn't spoken - Bill or your colleague? Mr Philip Currier The only problem I have Carol is that if you truly believe in the triggering mechanism, well, I should think you would support the veto, hoping that the Governor might come back, or II/the Legislature might come back with a compromise, which would in- clude the trigger Carol Amick The Legislature is going to have the vote from both branches with or without me there to extend binding arbitration Mrs Battin Not in the Senate Carol It's a matter of one vote - it's very close in the Senate Senator Harrington's calling it very close - can make a difference, and I think that's a good idea, if you sustain his veto then we have a chance of getting what you say you'd like and all of us can work for it Carol Amick I certainly will contact the Governor and President Harrington to find out if my one vote would make that difference, and I would again support the Governor's first amendment, that triggering mechanigm. Definitely Mr Hutchinson Senator Harrington told me today, Carol, that he does think in the Senate that it will be extremely close - coming down to one or two votes for over-riding, so I would say that every vote will be critical Mrs Battin Ifou sustain it -- then we can all work together Y g Mr Hutchinson I think you should talk with him - feels it will be close - he told me that as recently as 3 30 this afternoon Carol Amick That's more recent then my information Mr Kent I would only add that Mr Hutchinson said arguments with respect to this would lead you to support the Governor's veto Mrs Battin You don't have to commit yourself, you can surprise us Carol Amick I don't want to - I might say the wrong thing again L 497 Special Selectmen's Meeting June 16, 1977 Mrs Miley Just watch the votes, that's all Carol Amick I believe that there are the votes in the Senate, and I have not had the time to do all the checking and depending on who's going to vote which way, but I will definitely check on that and I will be in touch with you from all the communities because if that's the case, if I could be that pivotal person, I can understand your very very grave concern about talking with me Mrs Battin It is grave Mr Murphy What I would think is whether that vote is pivotal or not whether it's one in a losing cause, we think it's important to make it Sometimes it's better to go down with the ship, then to worry about if I'm going to be on the winning team or losing team I think you should be on the side where the issue is Carol Amick I often go down with the ship in the Legislature be- cause I usually come in the minority when things are voted, but I guess it comes back to whether we want binding arbitration at all or not As far as that question, I will check my copy if I can find it in my house, and if that is the case that that is what I said, I'm going to send you a letter Mrs Battin Well thank you very much for coming at such a busy time and I'm sorry that we have a meeting with the Burlington and Bedford Selectmen in Burlington Adjourned - Upon motion duly made and seconded, it was voted to adjourn at 7 46 p.m A true record, attest Executive Clerk, Selectmen